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Ride in/Ride on

HauteSaoneFrance

Joined: 2-01-14

Topics: 27

Replies: 91

Posted: Tue 3rd Nov 2015, 5:15pm
Ride in/Ride on

I chose 7.1/4 as being the first size that could be reasonably classified as 'Ride in' rather than 'Ride on' but so many of the locomotives and rolling stock on offer from commercial suppliers seem to be quite tiny, is this because of being to a true scale or because weight is a factor for those moving a locomotive around various club tracks? I've been looking for Locos and rolling stock with a width of near to 24 inches there doesn't seem much choice are am I looking in the wrong place or is there some other reason perhaps technical for avoiding what I believe is called 'minimal gauge' ?
 

Replies To This Post

PeteW

Joined: 1-10-13

Topics: 0

Replies: 21

Posted: Wed 4th Nov 2015, 11:35am

I have downsized to make it easier to take my things around the clubs that I visit so reducing weight is certainly important to me. I wouldn't describe anything in this gauge as tiny though!

Another factor is how do you stop a very heavy train? Vacuum brakes will be required rather than a simple handbrake.

Have you looked at Ride on Railways stuff?

Pete.
 

MartynRedfearn

Joined: 1-01-94

Topics: 16

Replies: 107

Posted: Wed 4th Nov 2015, 4:37pm

You need to look for narrow gauge or minimal gauge suppliers.  By minimal I am meaning rolling stock designed for 7 1/4" but at 12" to the foot.  Colin Edmondson, see address book, and Phoenix, http://phoenixlocos.com/products/model-locos/the-tug/, both do bigger locos.
You need to look for narrow gauge or minimal gauge suppliers. By minimal I am meaning rolling stock designed for 7 1/4" but at 12" to the foot. Colin Edmondson, see address book, and Phoenix, http://phoenixlocos.com/products/model-locos/the-tug/, both do bigger locos.
 

MartynRedfearn

Joined: 1-01-94

Topics: 16

Replies: 107

Posted: Wed 4th Nov 2015, 4:49pm

http://www.westonrail.co.uk/products.html http://www.rhinoindustries.co.uk/#
 

MartynRedfearn

Joined: 1-01-94

Topics: 16

Replies: 107

Posted: Wed 4th Nov 2015, 4:56pm

and if you want steam http://www.beevers.org.uk/pbe/pbe_builds.htm
 

Peter Beevers

Joined: 9-10-01

Topics: 3

Replies: 134

Posted: Thu 5th Nov 2015, 8:05am

The mass market is for scale locos, which, by definition, are small. Therefore, that is where the trade goes (supply and demand). It's also an historic thing, and capitalism, in general, is very slow to react to market change.

Is weight a factor? I would say "only if you don't have the right equipment to move things with". So, for the locos I build, while I have transported them on a trailer, I far prefer to use a medium sized van for transport purposes - it's a tool built for the job. When using the right tool for the job, the job is easier (as an engineer would say).

'Minimal gauge' (or whatever else you want to call it) is an amazing branch of 7.25" gauge railways. Because everything is built at 12" to the foot, things are much easier and more comfortable to operate. I can sit in and drive one of my locos all day, and walk away afterwards without backache. You can't do that with a scale loco.
 

HauteSaoneFrance

Joined: 2-01-14

Topics: 27

Replies: 91

Posted: Thu 5th Nov 2015, 8:23pm

Thanks PeteW, Martyn & Peter Beevers for the replies and advice on contacts. My proposed railway is simply a private garden one, I don't want to cart Loco's around the clubs but if I ever did I csn handle about 2.1/2 tons indivisible load on a flat trailer and can lift similar weights at my place. I do though accord with the majority who require something easily transportable and what the commercial sector must therefore offer.

I have up to now but one Loco a CME Knight 0-4-0 petrol hydraulic and tender, it just about qualifies as a 'sit in' but I'm really taken with the larger Loco's like Martyn's 'Victoria' and I'm aware of Ride On Railways 'Capt Howey' I was generally a tad disappointed at discovering how small the scale Loco's are, it prompted me asking a while back 'Am I in the right gauge?' but now realise that 7.1/4 doesn't necessarily mean tiny.

Everyone tells me I won't stop at just one Loco and will probably at some point want to have a steam one too. I don't have the skills (or time) to build so will need to buy completed, I can manage some of the more basic rolling stock but my forte is mostly the 'civils' as I'm well placed to cope with establishing the track and in reality enjoy the challenges of my site and it's variation in levels

I'm sure there must be others coming into this hobby as relative 'newbies' who experience some disappointment at how diminutive it can seem, start to look at larger gauges and then get put off by lack of choice and much higher costs, I'm now beginning to understand it doesn't have to be like that.
 

PeteW

Joined: 1-10-13

Topics: 0

Replies: 21

Posted: Thu 5th Nov 2015, 10:55pm

What are you intending to do with your railway?

Will it just be you running a loco, or several friends plus locos, or invite family for rides etc?

Pete.
 

HauteSaoneFrance

Joined: 2-01-14

Topics: 27

Replies: 91

Posted: Sun 8th Nov 2015, 4:36pm

Hi Pete, At the moment it's just me realising a long held ambition to have my own garden railway, I think the establishment of the tracks etc is as exciting for me as will be the eventual operation? Of course friends whether 'railway' types or not will be very welcome as would anyone who wishes to turn up with their own loco though up to now I have not made any French contacts.
 

PeteW

Joined: 1-10-13

Topics: 0

Replies: 21

Posted: Sun 8th Nov 2015, 7:50pm

Construction of 70 metres of 5" gauge in my garden was enough of a task! Still, it has been great to see our kids (of all ages) enjoying it.

Sounds like you have no pressure and can enjoy the whole process at a pace that suits you.

 

HauteSaoneFrance

Joined: 2-01-14

Topics: 27

Replies: 91

Posted: Sun 8th Nov 2015, 8:12pm

I'm fortunate Pete in having this penchant for construction and a range of machinery to make it happen, I look on my range of machinery as being 'big girls toys' It used to be for real a necessity when establishing the marina 30 years ago now it's just a hobby.
 

HauteSaoneFrance

Joined: 2-01-14

Topics: 27

Replies: 91

Posted: Sun 8th Nov 2015, 8:17pm

I did wonder what was meant by the description Minimal Gauge? Minimal seemed to me as if meant 'small' but in fact it seems the opposite? can anyone explain where the description came from?
 

MartynRedfearn

Joined: 1-01-94

Topics: 16

Replies: 107

Posted: Mon 9th Nov 2015, 3:27pm

It is from Arthur Heywoods book 'Minimal Gauge Railways' http://www.gutenberg.org/files/44341/44341-h/44341-h.htm
 

georgewhite

Joined: 1-12-05

Topics: 3

Replies: 12

Posted: Mon 9th Nov 2015, 4:32pm

Be careful whatever you choose. The committee at ESSMEE have effectively banned all prototypical coaches due to H&S reasons
 

George Coles

Joined: 4-08-09

Topics: 19

Replies: 90

Posted: Mon 9th Nov 2015, 5:26pm

As you will see if you follow Martyn's link, Sir Arthur's book was actually MiniMUM gauge railways. I think you will find that 'Stockers' (who was, briefly, the editor of the 7 1/4 Newsletter) either coined, or popularised, the 'Minimal' epithet, referring to railways the gauge of which was probably the smallest on which useful rolling stock could be run, as is your plan.
Incidentally, although Sir AP Heywood is usually associated with 15" gauge as his minimum, I seem to remember that he thought 12" was practicable. I'll have to check my copy to see.
I find your updates intriguing: you seem to be having lots of fun building your railway. I wonder if you will ever stop 'improving' it!
George C
 

colinedmondson

Joined: 9-08-09

Topics: 3

Replies: 82

Posted: Mon 9th Nov 2015, 5:30pm

You can definitely build a loco big enough to sit in without any worries about stability, I can stand on the side of Stumpy and jump up and down without a wobble! Martyn added a roof to Spuggy as he lives in Yorkshire, the land of rain.
You can definitely build a loco big enough to sit in without any worries about stability, I can stand on the side of Stumpy and jump up and down without a wobble! Martyn added a roof to Spuggy as he lives in Yorkshire, the land of rain.
 

colinedmondson

Joined: 9-08-09

Topics: 3

Replies: 82

Posted: Mon 9th Nov 2015, 5:35pm

I am also working on a kit for a larger sit in loco which requires virtually no welding. 5.5hp hydrostat, air brakes, sanding gear. Hoping to have one built over the winter.
I am also working on a kit for a larger sit in loco which requires virtually no welding. 5.5hp hydrostat, air brakes, sanding gear. Hoping to have one built over the winter.
 

George Coles

Joined: 4-08-09

Topics: 19

Replies: 90

Posted: Mon 9th Nov 2015, 5:41pm

Haven't had a chance to check my book yet, but I thought you might like to see that even 5" gauge can be used as a working railway. The picture shows a Northampton SME work party spreading top soil around our raised track. We had planned to loco haul the wagons in trains of three, but the workload proved to be more evenly balanced if the wagons were manually propelled round the track in ones! Fortunately our raised track is a continuous circuit, so the wagons ran one way around the loop from filling point to work site to filling point. We moved 200 tons in this way, over 6 days!
George C
Haven't had a chance to check my book yet, but I thought you might like to see that even 5" gauge can be used as a working railway. The picture shows a Northampton SME work party spreading top soil around our raised track. We had planned to loco haul the wagons in trains of three, but the workload proved to be more evenly balanced if the wagons were manually propelled round the track in ones! Fortunately our raised track is a continuous circuit, so the wagons ran one way around the loop from filling point to work site to filling point. We moved 200 tons in this way, over 6 days!
George C
 

colinedmondson

Joined: 9-08-09

Topics: 3

Replies: 82

Posted: Mon 9th Nov 2015, 5:42pm

Scamp is designed for a different market, those who want an easily transportable loco that can still do a serious job of work. The engine/generator lifts out to lighten it.
Scamp is designed for a different market, those who want an easily transportable loco that can still do a serious job of work. The engine/generator lifts out to lighten it.
 

HauteSaoneFrance

Joined: 2-01-14

Topics: 27

Replies: 91

Posted: Mon 9th Nov 2015, 6:24pm

Gosh what a lot of replies, thanks to everyone, I'm new to the railway but not to the work necessary to establish the tracks, I was doing similar over 30 years ago for business reasons now it's for a hobby. I'm enjoying the work and challenges, today I've just started putting together the steel framework for the new 12 m X 8 m loco shed/workshop right now I'm working single handed so it's slow going but I have every machine you could possibly wish for. I will have to rely on buying Loco's built by others but build of some rolling stock is within my skills. I love your 'Stafford' idea Colin, in fact I love one off's it's where I was years ago in the Marine industry until the 'Recreational Craft Directive' became law stifling innovation. H & S is all very well and the public have to be protected but in my case it's just a private garden railway
 

colinedmondson

Joined: 9-08-09

Topics: 3

Replies: 82

Posted: Mon 9th Nov 2015, 7:48pm

If you are doing everything yourself it will keep you out of mischief for years. If you want to speed things up a bit I can offer Scamp as a kit, around 3-4 days to build, a tipper wagon kit which has a bolted frame and a welded body, all the laser cut parts to detail a copy of Stumpy, and the sit in loco kit should be ready for next year.
 

colinedmondson

Joined: 9-08-09

Topics: 3

Replies: 82

Posted: Tue 10th Nov 2015, 8:44am

A final note, I believe that the term 'minimal gauge railways' was coined by Chris Stockdale, you will find his group on facebook, a very active group indeed. I quote from his introduction,
" For most of us Sir Arthur Heywood's 15” 'minimum' gauge of 1874 onwards is a tad large for a back garden or similar. We have neither his space nor his funds. This group is for sub 15" gauge railways that are nevertheless genuine 12” to the foot narrow gauge (as opposed to a miniature of something else, or something that is 'miniature' in style). Our ideal is a tiny railway that does a real job of work, however modest, in or around your garden, workshop, allotment or the like. Most such railways are running on 7 1/4" (and its American equivalent, 7 1/2"), with a few using 10 1/4" or 12 1/4". In other words, pretty much anything which is under 15" gauge but 12" to the foot.

Some years ago I dubbed this concept 'minimal' in an effort to show it was similar but smaller still than Heywood's 'minimum'. The description stuck with the handful of us who first began sharing our activities about these railways. And now we have this FB group so we can share even more stuff across the world."
https://www.facebook.com/groups/MinimalGaugeRailways/
 

HauteSaoneFrance

Joined: 2-01-14

Topics: 27

Replies: 91

Posted: Tue 10th Nov 2015, 8:28pm

I must be really thick? Laughter ! can't get my head round the scale description 12" to the foot. Surely 12" is a foot? so in my mind it seems like 1 to 1 which I know of course it can't be.
 

PeteW

Joined: 1-10-13

Topics: 0

Replies: 21

Posted: Wed 11th Nov 2015, 8:48am

If you read that 19th Century article it is all about the smallest practical gauge that will perform a real task. It most certainly is all about 1:1, although in the 21st C it is for recreational use rather than carrying materials or providing a commercial passenger service. (At least that is how I read it!)

The Summer Edition (page 4) carries a story of a project at the Newport club which may be of interest.
 

colinedmondson

Joined: 9-08-09

Topics: 3

Replies: 82

Posted: Wed 11th Nov 2015, 11:00am

Yes 12" to the foot! A loco or item of stock designed to do a job of work that just happens to run on narrow tracks, rather than a scaled down version of something larger. By the way, the name 'STAFFORD' on my drawing above will possibly be the loco name for the first on built, not a model name, as Station road Steam already use the name for their stem loco.
 

HauteSaoneFrance

Joined: 2-01-14

Topics: 27

Replies: 91

Posted: Thu 12th Nov 2015, 5:20pm

Thanks Pete W and Colin for that explanation, to a newcomer like me the term 'Minimal; seems to indicate small but loco's such as 'Victoria' are plainly quite the opposite. Confused no longer !
 

NZRnut

Joined: 1-01-70

Topics: 0

Replies: 1

Posted: Thu 31st Dec 2015, 11:00pm

This is the 7.25'' club I belong to http://www.clstrains.co.nz Have a look at the photo gallery, most of our trains are 'ride in'. Our track rail is made of 16 x 40mm steel which is a lot bigger and stronger so it can take these trains (the bigger locos weigh up to 2.5 tonnes)
 

George Coles

Joined: 4-08-09

Topics: 19

Replies: 90

Posted: Fri 1st Jan 2016, 8:15am

NZRnut. I've tried the link to the web-site, but my browser says not found. Any idea why?
Best wishes,
George
 

HauteSaoneFrance

Joined: 2-01-14

Topics: 27

Replies: 91

Posted: Fri 1st Jan 2016, 8:28am

Thanks NZRnut. and George I found the website immediately.

Gosh what a lot of Loco's I counted 12. I'm very taken with the 'ride' in size of almost all and if you're not concerned about transport of Loco's to other sites it shows what can be achieved in 7.1/4 minimal gauge
 

George Coles

Joined: 4-08-09

Topics: 19

Replies: 90

Posted: Fri 1st Jan 2016, 9:58am

Doh! I've just tried again, and it loaded straight away. I guess 'tinternet was overloaded up here in the Highlands. It happens!
 
 
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